Vettel still has race stint advantage over Webber

79 comments on “Vettel still has race stint advantage over Webber”

1. 

   BasCB (@bascb)
   15th April 2011, 9:55

   A brave man to bet against Vettel being the man to beat this weekend, again.
   1. 

      Dane
      15th April 2011, 10:00

      I guess Im brave….. or stupid?
      1. 

         NDINYO
         15th April 2011, 12:38

         dont make any bets ;)
      2. 

         BasCB (@bascb)
         15th April 2011, 12:48

         Or both!
   2. 

      Fixy (@)
      15th April 2011, 13:02

      I don’t know why but today I had a strong thought that Massa will win… fingers crossed!
      1. 

         Last Pope Eye
         15th April 2011, 13:23

         same here.. :p
      2. 

         ed24f1 (@ed24f1)
         15th April 2011, 15:54

         If he can win here it would be incredible consdering he hasn’t even been faster than his team-mate at Shanghai since 2005.

         I think Turkey’s a good chance for him though!
         1. 

            Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
            15th April 2011, 20:12

            Agreed, he has always been awesome at Turkey, first driver to win the same gp 3 years in a row after schumi, when he won Turkey from 06-08.

            But I share Fixy’s hope that another driver besides Vettel will win this weekend. I don’t particularly even care who, I’d just like to see someone shake things up.
   3. 

      dynamite11 (@dynamite11)
      15th April 2011, 13:30

      i did,figured everyone would pick vettel for pole,gambled on scoring more if Hammy can pull smthn outa the bag
2. 

   MacLeod
   15th April 2011, 9:56

   Those with high speeds are really going to overtake folks on the straight. In combination of some Wet stuf i think we can rate this race high.
   1. 

      TdM
      15th April 2011, 10:17

      I would think that the ones at the sharp end of it (Like Buemi) will dial in some more downforce – it doesn’t make sense to be that much quicker than the main runners down the straight – they can almost certainly trade some of that off for better average pace around the whole lap.

      I was, however, expecting the McLarens to be quicker than that down the straight the Merc engine has a lot of shove… Perhaps they are running a lot of wing…
      1. 

         Movement (@movement)
         15th April 2011, 14:15

         you’d certainly hope so, otherwise they’re going to struggle to get decent overtaking opportunities. They did say that in Malaysia they were running slightly steeper wings than usual to try and make up downforce, so maybe they’re going for the same…I mean, last year Hamilton managed 318kph, so to have managed less this year with kers back (and DRS instead of F-duct) must tell you quite alot!

         The Cosworth engines are so far down on speed, that is very surprising!
3. 

   Philonso (@philonso)
   15th April 2011, 10:08

   the teams are wrong on straight speed list
   1. 

      Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
      15th April 2011, 10:20

      No they aren’t.
      1. 

         Philonso (@philonso)
         15th April 2011, 10:42

         i swear i looked like two minutes ago and a few drivers were under different teams. I must be losing it. sorry about that. dementia setting in at 17 clearly…
         1. 

            Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
            15th April 2011, 10:43

            You had me worried! Maybe you were looking at the engine column.
            1. 

               Philonso (@philonso)
               15th April 2011, 10:47

               oh yeh that’s probably it. I probably saw Buemi as Ferrari and Sutil as Mercedes and didn’t take the time to think what column I was looking at [face palm]
4. 

   Todfod (@todfod)
   15th April 2011, 10:12

   I’m hoping that it rains during the race on Sunday. We are two races down, and yet there hasn’t been a fight for the top step of the podium.
   1. 

      NDINYO
      15th April 2011, 12:50

      that is worrying – there have been too many runaway seasons lately (read Button’s 2009 and now 2011 looks like it will be another). The cycling season is starting to look very interesting compared to F1.
5. 

   Coxy
   15th April 2011, 10:19

   Great stats as always thanks!
6. 

   Bill L
   15th April 2011, 10:20

   Hey Keith. Spent some time sitting at the final two corners at the start of P3. Could be an extra bit of analysis to see who was using drs for whole lap (in this case run from hairpin to final corner) vs who wasn’t. I figured the guys doing race stints weren’t using it but couldn’t be sure. I know that when I was watching red bull weren’t, mclaren weren’t, ferrari weren’t but then were, and Mercedes were using it. Pretty cool thing about being at the tracks is seeing the drs live.
   1. 

      Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
      15th April 2011, 20:15

      Could that be the reason for Mercedes improved pace?

      If they were using it during their stints it would make them significantly faster than they will be without it during the race.
7. 

   Lord Ha Ha
   15th April 2011, 10:25

   Vettel’s KERS worked, Webber’s didn’t.
   1. 

      F1iLike
      15th April 2011, 11:05

      Webber is too old to understand! “This PS2 controller I bloody don’t want can’t be expecting a pony ride this with seb hopping up front bloody well.”
      1. 

         mingmong
         16th April 2011, 1:33

         That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve read this year…
   2. 

      mingmong
      16th April 2011, 1:32

      Yep 3 race weekends in a row now. Shame on RBR for not giving him the tools again to fight for the championship. Something smells, this clearly wouldn’t happen on vets car.
8. 

   Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk)
   15th April 2011, 10:35

   2010 FP2

   1. Sebastian Vettel 1:35.791
   2. Mark Webber 1:35.995

   2011 FP2

   1. Sebastian Vettel 1’37.688
   2. Lewis Hamilton 1’37.854

   That 2/10s + – is just amazing…
   1. 

      Grabthebull !
      15th April 2011, 10:47

      But redbull are not light!
      1. 

         Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk)
         15th April 2011, 10:57

         I never said they were. I was just comparing 2010 and 2011 FP2 P1 and P2 time differences and noting that Vettel had a comparable lead at the end of FP2.

         Furthermore, get your tenses correct. Were light, not are light.

         Cheers, Alex
         1. 

            Srini (@)
            15th April 2011, 17:45

            what’s wrong with “are”. He probably is saying that VET is not as light as HAM when he set that time.
9. 

   Carl
   15th April 2011, 10:40

   This is getting boring already…
   1. 

      Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk)
      15th April 2011, 11:04

      I assume that Vettel being fastest is what that is boring to you.

      That was never a problem with me for Prost, Senna, Mansel and MSC…

      Being fastest is what really matters in the end.
      1. 

         Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk)
         15th April 2011, 11:05

         That and winning.
         1. 

            Carl
            15th April 2011, 11:41

            I dont have a problem with Vettel or the fact that he is winning everything. Problem is we dont see any racing for the win. All the racing happens behind him. And we dont want a championship winner halfway through the season.
            1. 

               VXR
               15th April 2011, 12:20

               And we dont want a championship winner halfway through the season.

               It wouldn’t be the first time that happened!

               It’s up to the other teams to compete with Red Bull, and with Vettel in particular.

               But even if you do get a championship winner half way through the season, it shouldn’t detract from what’s happening behind him.
            2. 

               Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
               15th April 2011, 12:29

               And we dont want a championship winner halfway through the season.

               Does it really matter? Surely what matters more is that we have exciting races.

               I want the right driver to win the championship and if he does it in round nine or round nineteen I’m not too fussed.

               One of the best F1 races I’ve ever seen was Suzuka 2005. The drivers’ championship had already been decided. Did it make the race any less exciting? Not one iota.

               This needless preoccupation with trying to have the championship decided as late as possible is precisely why we have such a conservative points system, which in turn encourages (and rewards) conservative driving.
            3. 

               Icthyes (@icthyes)
               15th April 2011, 12:53

               I think it’s very interesting that someone brought this up as a while ago someone on here raised the point: is the number of races making each one and victories less special than they used to be?

               Of course we’ve only gone from 16 to 20 in all the years I’ve been watching, so it’s not that diluted. But I do think we have seen the implications of a results on the overall championship start to outweigh the quality of the individual race in all but the most exciting races (7.5/10 and above). This is what happened in 2009 so I think the potential for an early champion does have some relevance in the debate.

               After Malaysia we saw a few comments about how good the race was but the result was rubbish (and not just because they don’t support Red Bull). I think that’s pretty indicative of where F1 is at the moment. People want exciting races, but if the championship is a foregone conclusion, it usually means it’s because someone is always winning and as I said last week, a fight for the lead can be as worth as much as 2 points on the rating of the race.
            4. 

               Fixy (@)
               15th April 2011, 13:15

               But even if you do get a championship winner half way through the season, it shouldn’t detract from what’s happening behind him.

               Does it really matter? Surely what matters more is that we have exciting races.
            5. 

               Todfod (@todfod)
               15th April 2011, 13:24

               A huge part of the excitement is what happens in the championship standings after the race. So while I enjoyed Suzuka 2005, I would have to say that the result being rather inconsequential, did take away a little bit of the excitement away for me. Fighting for the race win has much more of an impact than fighting for 3rd or 4th place. A huge part of F1’s charm is the unpredictability within races, and if the 1st place seems too predictable then a lot of fans will lose interest halfway through the season.

               Lets just hope that Vettel and Red Bull run into a lot of problems sometime soon, as this season is not shaping up to be as good as last year.
            6. 

               Carl
               15th April 2011, 13:58

               If the Championship is won by round nine then surely all the teams will stop development on their cars and focus on next years car. And for me the development race is almost just as exciting as the actual racing.
            7. 

               lewymp4 (@lewymp4)
               15th April 2011, 17:52

               I can see an answer to this problem…….ban Adrian Newey from the sport.
            8. 

               TheGreatCornholio
               15th April 2011, 23:52

               the not actually having to “race” anyone to win does jar slightly. Its almost more of a time trial really. Does anyone actually know when the last time Vettel had to go wheel to wheel with someone to gain a place cos tbh i can’t remember!
      2. 

         NJB
         16th April 2011, 0:46

         The difference between Vettel and the likes of Senna, Schumacher and Alonso is that he has not yet proven his ability to out-perform his equipment. Vettel is clearly able to extract the maximum from the Red Bull but it’s difficult to compare him to recognised greats whilst all his victories (except Monza 2008) have been in car with a clear pace advantage over the rest of the field.

         To my mind many other drivers on the grid could win in the Red Bull so a lot of the adulation he is receiving seems to be a little premature.
10. 

    Ben N
    15th April 2011, 11:07

    Watch Button lead a McLaren 1-2 on Sunday after Vettel takes another pole! Well… that’s what I’d like to expect anyway.

    I’m hoping the Mercedes are real on their pace – wondering whether to feature them in both the F1 Fanatic and Castrol prediction championships – really enjoying both!

    Nice to see HRT outpace Virgin.

    With regard to Webber – he is in real trouble and if he doesn’t improve I can see him walking away or being pushed away before the end of the year.
    1. 

       Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk)
       15th April 2011, 11:17

       Ben I guessed that Button would grab 2nd in Malaysia.

       It was just a guess and I had no real reason for choosing him and nothing really backed up my choice except that it felt right.

       As silly as it may sound I may take your advice on a Macca 1 2.
       1. 

          Tango (@tango)
          15th April 2011, 13:11

          I put Vettel on pole, but I felt like putting a Macca 1-2 also. Hope we won’t look like fools come Sunday.
11. 

    VXR
    15th April 2011, 11:32

    Posted this elsewhere, but it does give you some idea of how good the Red Bull car seems to the McLaren drivers.

    “Through the long run it looked like they were quicker than Jenson, maybe a second compared to his long run on soft tyres,” said Hamilton, who added that he had done his long stints on hard tyres.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13091304.stm
    1. 

       claudioff
       15th April 2011, 14:44

       That is really a very good point. It could explain, for instance, Massa´s behavior. One, two or three very fast laps, followed by one lap very slow. Keith, could you add the type of tyre which each driver used in these stints? It could give a clearer idea of what it was going on.
12. 

    Dutch_Alex
    15th April 2011, 11:35

    I can see the graphs again without deselecting/selecting all the boxes. Thanks for the change Keith:).

    And as for Red Bull being on top again: Their time has come, but history shows it will go again.
13. 

    Robert McKay
    15th April 2011, 11:42

    I’ll tell you this – for all the stick I’ve given HRT, if they outqualify Virgin here I will be very impressed with their efforts.

    OK I never expected miracles from Virgin but to apparently go backwards from where they were last season seems pretty disappointing, although I suppose we’re still in the early stages of the weekend and the season in general.
    1. 

       vinicius.jlantunes (@vinicius-jlantunes)
       15th April 2011, 13:39

       Some media guys here in Brazil were slashing HRT… they will have to retreat their comments I guess… of course the team is far from good, but they do have a competent and serious guy in the person of Colin Kolles. Let’s wait and see.
14. 

    sato113 (@sato113)
    15th April 2011, 12:46

    interesting move from HRT… I’ll be watching the situation between their pace and virgin’s pace tomorrow…
15. 

    Eggry (@eggry)
    15th April 2011, 13:11

    Someone have to stop him…
    1. 

       Todfod (@todfod)
       15th April 2011, 13:29

       Just hoping Mark takes him out in the 1st corner tomorrow.
       1. 

          Eggry (@eggry)
          15th April 2011, 14:54

          It would be great but unlikey in this form…
16. 

    icytrue
    15th April 2011, 13:26

    It appears that having a Cosworth is a distinct disadvantage on the Maximum Speed chart.

    Distressing to see Williams towards the bottom of every table – surely they must have something fundamentally wrong with their aero somewhere?

    Also do we know if the Williams KERS is working effectively now?
    1. 

       Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk)
       15th April 2011, 14:15

       It is a bit odd considering that a major part of their aero design was the smaller, lower gearbox to get more air on the rear disfusser.

       Not a clue about their KERS.
17. 

    vinicius.jlantunes (@vinicius-jlantunes)
    15th April 2011, 13:28

    Did you guys notice the times Kobayashi did in his 8 lap stint? Comparable to Webber’s… of course he could be much lighter, who knows, but I’m liking seeing these guys doing well!
18. 

    SundarF1 (@sundarf1)
    15th April 2011, 13:29

    Vettel for pole tomorrow seems like a foregone conclusion already. At this rate this bloke’s gonna break Schumacher’s pole record before Schumi retires for the second time.

    I must say, I was expecting the RB7’s pace in the third sector to be a lot worse than it is. And the only man who has the machinery to take on Seb on equal terms isn’t exactly setting the track alight right now, I hope Webber hits some form quickly.

    As for the championship being decided early on, I don’t want that to happen either. At the end of the day, a battle for the win is a lot more exciting and memorable to me, and I’d rather see a season like 2010 than a Vettel domination.
19. 

    Douglas62500
    15th April 2011, 14:36

    Wow HRT must be credited for their achievements. Even under such limited fundings and only 3 months to come up with updates to their underperforming F110, and starting to catch Virgin with what is essentially just the influence of a new front end. That is an amazing turnaround !!
20. 

    DaveW
    15th April 2011, 14:55

    Ominous again for Hamilton that he was unwilling or unable to do a proper long stint. Last week, it was Button who did the long run, and it looks like it mattered in the race in terms of set up. Now, neither of them seemed to do a solid run, and as it was, Button was way slower than Vettel. Comparing yesterday to today, I reckon RBR, again, have compromised their set up for the long run, which is why McLaren are getting so close in ultimate lap now, but getting killed on the long runs. McLaren’s only real avenue here is to disturb RBR’s bargain by stealing pole, however many flat-spots or tire-killing set up choices it takes. Hamilton (or Button) has to get out front, and make Vettel use some tire in dirty air. Basically, they have to do to Vettel what Heidfeld did to Hamilton last time.
21. 

    TdM
    15th April 2011, 15:06

    Really one of the most interesting things this weekend might be the battle between Lotus and Williams – Lotus are putting in quick laps and their speed trap numbers look very healthy compared to the Williams.

    Lotus may manage to get both cars through to Q2 which would be a good achievement if they could manage it. At worst even if they are behind the Williams at the start of the race, if they can hang on to them for a few laps they’ll be past easily on that back straight.

    Gonna be worth watching (possibly unlike Vettel)
22. 

    wigster (@wigster)
    15th April 2011, 15:12

    For the same reason that some people enjoy watching an individual race more if there’s a close fight for victory, i think the same can be said for the championship.

    Although I wont stop watching if Vettel wins the championship by august, i think some people will, especially the more casual fans who only tune in on a sunday lunch time and see the same car romping away to victory and can predict the result without turning their tv on.

    And dont forget its the casual viewers who pay thr sponsors and broadcasters who pay the teams.
23. 

    VXR
    15th April 2011, 15:40

    Pirelli reckon that one-stopping is a distinct possibilty.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90734
    1. 

       TdM
       15th April 2011, 16:34

       Vettel has very very low degradation according to that link… That’s an ominous sign for the race.
       1. 

          VXR
          15th April 2011, 16:43

          A very, very ominous sign!
24. 

    The Edge (@the-edge)
    15th April 2011, 16:30

    how strange webbers sor far down…smells like red bull are up to something a little fishy to me
    1. 

       VXR
       15th April 2011, 16:45

       Like doing different programmes for each driver?

       No point making one driver slower than the other. *awaits various conspiracy theories*
25. 

    MinusTwo
    15th April 2011, 16:39

    I agree that Webber is in real trouble if he doesn’t start measuring up to Seb soon enough. I think it would be really interesting to see who replaces him. Do you think that RB will go get another decent, but not fantastic gut to play “#2 driver” to Seb or will they choose the best driver available to really give Sebastian a run for his money?

    If it is the latter, who would that be? I think some drivers would really jump at the chance to drive a Newey-designed car. Maybe Schumacher should end his comeback in a great car to see if he still has what it takes?

    It’s probably way too early for any of this speculation but I cant help but think that far ahead.
    1. 

       TrueGrit
       16th April 2011, 2:26

       I hope it’s Ricciardo :)
26. 

    Tango (@tango)
    15th April 2011, 16:43

    I’m wondering how comes RB07 n° 01 is the class of the field and RB07 n° 2 is only the third or fourth best car of the field. I see three explanations :

    A) Being world champion has allowed Vettel to have enough confidence to gain an additional 0.2 to 0.7 seconds advantage to Webber. Vettel hads in team dominance to slight car advantage.

    B) Webber has hit a rough patch and Vettel’s dominance is about to be challenged. This also means that given little on track difficulties, Vettel might be as beatable by Macca et all as Webber has been in the two previous GPs.

    C) As others have pointed out, there is something fishy at Red Bull: The car is by far the class of the field, but only for who Herr Doktor Marko decides so.

    I really hope it’s B, otherwise Keith’s prediction championship will be decided on 4 choices instead of 5, and nobody wants that, don’t we?
    1. 

       DaveW
       15th April 2011, 18:33

       My explanation, according to some reports, Webber’s style is simply not suited to the tires. He straightens the car reactively in the corner. He is backs it in more than Vettel. Something like that. Whatever the traces show, result is higher rear tire wear under braking, which, apparently is exacerbated by KERS. Plus, the RB7 appears to be rear-tire hungry, requiring a very tight race set-up.

       Last year, he was very close to Vettel in raw pace, without KERS. Now, with the system, he pays a double price. First, it punishes his style. Second, it must exacerbate his weight disadvantage. He has to carry more balast than Vettel because of his stature, and KERS limits placement of ballast.
27. 

    rob from inverness
    15th April 2011, 20:58

    What a pleasure to read Keith’s detailed and relevant stats and the informed and perceptive posts from other readers. All in all, it has given me the best take tonight on what’s going on in Shanghai. Just excellent. Keep on keeping on, everyone.
28. 

    djdaveyp87
    15th April 2011, 22:18

    I KNEW HRT would overtake virgin!
29. 

    BROOKSY007 (@brooksy007)
    15th April 2011, 23:38

    I’m not so sure that it is webbers driving style… I mean these guys are all professionals and are able to change and adjust to the new characteristics of the cars, yes some quicker than others, but I still can’t help but think that there is something fishy going on! I mean quali would be closer if it was based on driving style, ie. tyre wear. I’m sure webber will pick up wins and poles once vettel has a solid no 1 status in the team! Redbull should be concerned more about public image than about securing their so called golden boy! Vettel is a good driver, I’m not doubting that, but we all know he is not that good!! He is still not a hamilton or alonso! I still consider webber and vettel very close on ability! Webber more so on race craft…that drive in malaysia was fantastic, and in my opinion the most interesting part of the entire race – apart from the flying rusky!!
30. 

    Young One
    15th April 2011, 23:43

    I am going out tonight and not really bothered about practice and qualif. Thank you RB.
31. 

    UKfanatic (@)
    16th April 2011, 0:12

    I’m no engineer but I think there are obvious set-up differences between Vet and Web, caster camber and toe are very different if you watch closely the pics I think Vet uses it to an extreme very unusual last year by the european season Vettel was struggling and he said that the car didnt had evolved following his style as soon as he says that redbull turned it around he says that the car is now ok and he starts winning all races until now, you all know that redbull backs vettel up 1st reason is that he is german 2nd young 3rd talented, he has an unfair advantage over any teammate I understand why redbull believes in him but like i´ve said when he complaines about something he gets it dont start talking that he has grown up its simple its all about the influences you got in the game I’ve followed some of his early career and he wasnt that special not as special as he become.
32. 

    BROOKSY007 (@brooksy007)
    16th April 2011, 2:00

    Its not ridiculous. The facts are starting to mount up. As too is the fishy smell!!! If it were due to tyre wear, quali results would be a lot closer!!!
33. 

    Lord Ha Ha
    16th April 2011, 2:21

    Don’t correct the record Keith. Sit there smiling little man.

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