Nico Rosberg, Max Verstappen, Hockenheimring, 2016

Verstappen move not a copy of Austria – Rosberg

F1 Fanatic Round-up

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In the round-up: Nico Rosberg denies his penalised defensive move against Max Verstappen was similar to his last-lap tangle with Lewis Hamilton in the Austrian Grand Prix.

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Andrew assesses Kvyat’s chances of keeping his place in F1 next year:

If we take a look at Toro Rosso’s driver policy, it shows that every driver that cannot be promoted to Red Bull in no more than three seasons, had to leave the team, and usually F1 as well. Making his debut in 2014, this years end will surely mean Kvyat’s exit, even though he had more than a season with Red Bull. With his frustration and bad luck in the Toro Rosso seat, the board will we able to explain his more than possible departure unfortunately.

Klien: 2004 (Jaguar) + 2005 (Red Bull) + 2006 (Red Bull) = 3 (would be able to return to F1 later. Klien is a strange start of this list, as he never drove for Toro Rosso, but I believe he is the very first representation of what Red Bull/Toro Rosso had in mind about their driver development programme)
Liuzzi: 2005 (Red Bull) + 2006 + 2007 = 3 (would be able to return to F1 later)
Speed: 2006 + 2007 = 2
Vettel: 2007 + 2008 = 2 (promoted)
Bourdais: 2008 + 2009 = 2
Buemi: 2009 + 2010 + 2011 = 3
Alguersuari: 2009 + 2010 + 2011 = 3
Ricciardo: (2011 with HRT might count as well) + 2012 + 2013 = 2/3 (promoted)
Vergne: 2012 + 2013 + 2014 = 3
Kvyat: 2014 + 2015 (Red Bull) + 2016 = 3
Verstappen: 2015 + 2016 (promoted)
Sainz: 2015 + 2016

Two more consequences can be seen from the list:
1. Most of those Toro Rosso drivers that weren’t promoted to Red Bull, couldn’t get a drive in F1 any more
2. Anyone whose Toro Rosso team mate got promoted to Red Bull, has never been promoted himself as well (which can be a threat to Sainz at the end of next year)

Although I believe that Verstappen is a greater talent, Kvyat is still a decent driver. Kvyat most possibly couldn’t have won the Spanish GP in a Red Bull, meanwhile Verstappen might have done better than tenth in a Toro Rosso. But we will never know this for sure. Until Kvyat is the only Russian driver on the grid, he might still worthy to be employed considering the huge Russian market, and of course as being a solid driver.
@Andrewt

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  • 31 comments on “Verstappen move not a copy of Austria – Rosberg”

    1. Have I missed a rule change about the summer break or is Verbenni just loosing it.

      1. The rules stop people from entering the factory, and even from emailing each other on their work emails, but it does not attempt to stop people from thinking because that would be impossible (Adrian Newey invented zero-keel while on holiday in the Caribbean). Since a significant part of Ferrari’s troubles can be solved by people thinking differently from their situations, I think Maurizio intends to give his subordinates lots of “homework” involving changing how they think about certain incidents.

    2. @keithcollantine, I shared your view of the pit-stops, sorry race, but missed quite a few due to commercial breaks, maybe that’s why I quite enjoyed the race, despite the plethora of messages to drivers that pretty much just said “slow down”.

    3. Does anybody have a video off Vettel’s off on the last lap?

      1. Oh, so that’s what happened; i saw the timing before the last lap (he lost 5-6 seconds) and i thought he might let Kimi go ahead of him.

        1. The onboard channel had him on the screen for a the last couple of laps and it seemed he hit the curbs a couple of times really hard and the end he had some kind of power failure i beleive. He was driving really slow. So slow i had to check the main feed to be sure the race hadn’t finished yet.

    4. But he said he wasn’t guilty on Austria.
      It could be a copy of that move, then.

      Or by saying this he is admitting his guilt that day?

      1. Bingo!

      2. OR he could just be stating that they are two different scenarios which can’t be directly compared with one another?

      3. He doesn’t realise that he also has to make a reasonable attempt to turn into the apex of the corner. And that to have his car follow the line he followed in both instances, he either has to lock the brakes or have massive understeer, both would probably have damaged his tyres.
        He just does not have the skills, and maybe sometime sooner rather than later, Mercedes will realise this and put a better, more deserving driver in his seat. It should have been next year, and if with the rule changes RBR, or some other team, catches up then he will probably never finish higher than fourth in most races.

        1. That’s a really good point. While you can guarantee a 1-2 it doesn’t really matter who you put in the seat, so play the safe, PC Mercedes corporate approach and stick with good old Nico. But if it becomes a fight with RBR and/or others, the quality of that second driver will become much more of a distinguishing factor. One could argue that we are already seeing this effect – if Nico doesn’t get the lead at the beginning, he has a greater chance than Lewis of finishing behind 2nd

    5. Regarding COTD, I’m more worry about Sainz becoming the latest victim of RB/STR “curse”. Like JEV before him, Sainz is a very capable driver and deserves to stay in F1. I hope Haas or Sauber could pick him up if he does get booted from RB camp.

      1. If I was Sainz, I would have my Dad visiting all the other teams to see where there is an opening. With the skills he has shown I would look further up the ladder, how about Kimi’s seat or better still Rosberg’s.

        1. If I was running Renault or Williams I’d think about Sainz.

      2. Roth Man (@rdotquestionmark)
        1st August 2016, 9:13

        I think Sainz will get his chance but at another team. Red Bull would be crazy to let Ricciardo or Verstappen leave so I imagine Sainz will leave TR at the end of his contract mutually to move onwards and upwards. I think he’s already built a better reputation than the previous failed TR/RB driver’s listed above in COTD and will have teams jumping at the opportunity to sign him. JEV and Buemi I felt deserved to stay in F1 but I think Sainz is a more exciting prospect than them.

        1. @rdotquestionmark Sainz is definitely delivering better impression than JEV and Buemi, both who also earned the right to keep competing at F1. However, the top 3 team + McLaren seat is filled with better drivers than Sainz and they will always the option to pick him at their discretion – not Sainz’s. STR obviously out of option and FI has solid symbiotic relation with their drivers now. That leaves Haas, Sauber, Renault, and Manor. I think Manor is too uncompetitive for Sainz. So what he has now is only those 3 teams. Williams probably could pick him up if Massa retires but I doubt that and they have their own junior driver programme.

          1. Considering the possibility of Perez leaving Force India, even they could be looking at Sainz.

      3. We don’t know what happens behind the scene, but I’ve always felt that the Red Bull program’s drivers biggest problem was being too passive with their career, relying entirely on the program and always waiting for it to give them their next opportunity. But the Red Bull program looks after Red Bull’s best interest first and it’s perfectly normal: furthering a driver’s career is the driver’s own responsability.

        We’d all prefer on-track performance be the only deciding factor but it has never worked like that. The first thing to do as a freshly signed Toro Rosso driver (or even earlier than that, as a freshly-signed young driver in the Red Bull program) would be building your own connections and looking for your own sponsors. Showing Red Bull and the other teams that you don’t need Red Bull to succeed can only make you a more attractive prospect in the eyes of everybody, including Red Bull.

        And don’t be afraid of hiring a manager, someone better-versed than you in all that, who will work for you and fight for your best interest.

        1. Good one, but maybe part of the contract also forbidding any kind of personal manager. We wouldn’t know until an alumni telling us what really going inside. Also most of them picked up by Red Bull in junior categories and advancing their career completely under RB umbrella, which doesn’t give them the urgency to actively seeking out other option.

          1. Bourdais and Verstappen have been at Toro Rosso with managers (a full-service one in Bourdais’ case, a father taking on some of a personal manager’s job in Verstappen’s). It is clearly possible for a manager to be hired for a Toro Rosso driver, but whether Red Bull leaves enough of a personal manager’s job free to justify a driver in F1 to hire someone like that is another question.

            1. “whether Red Bull leaves enough of a personal manager’s job free to justify a driver in F1 to hire someone like that is another question”

              I’ll answer that question with another: during discussions and negotiations between the Red Bull program and a driver, who is representing the driver’s interest?
              The driver himself? Most of them are teenagers or young adults when they enter the program. Someone on Red Bull’s payroll? That’s a conflict of interest if I ever saw one. Someone from the driver’s family or friends? That can work if they have experience in this kind of stuff.

              That’s why I’d say any young driver good enough to be noticed by the Red Bull program should hire a manager (being the protégé of someone inside the racing world who already acts as their sort of manager is probably enough). There’s no shame in admitting that as a young adult (at best) you aren’t the best-equipped to negotiate contracts or navigate the sometimes treacherous world of motorsport by yourself, and there’s a lot to gain by having a knowledgeable professional on your payroll whose job is to fight for you.

            2. Verstappen has a full fledged manager: Raymond Vermeulen.
              He also has personal sponsors (most notably Exact, Jumbo and Hornbach; a large financial software firm, a large retailer and a DIY shop chain).

          2. He has one advantage over most other drivers, a well liked and respected motor sport champion dad, who can talk to anybody in motor sport.

    6. “the public don’t understand this and don’t care”

      This is a direct quote from Bernie in the Adam Cooper article. It comes up time and time again, and every time it does I cringe. Just who does Bernie think watches this sport? Yes it is complicated, yes there are a lot of rules, but fans f the sport are interested in that sort of stuff and take time to understand them. o the premise that you should get rid of certain rules because fans are idiots is just plain false. It is also horribly patronising.

    7. The Wall Street Journal (subscription required) reports that F1 is on the verge of changing hands, Sky is one of the bidders…

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/sky-discovery-liberty-global-others-circle-formula-one-1469827049

      1. That makes sense of some of the sweet deals Bernie’s given Sky before (10m discount in Germany, full rights in Britain when Sky couldn’t make half-rights work properly in terms of viewers)

    8. On Lewis Hamilton being booed in Germany, I can’t understand why it’s so bad. Lewis Hamilton is a Brit driver fighting for WDC against a German driver so German fans boo him because in sports when your opponent is very good, as a fan, you boo him. It doesn’t necessarily they do not respect Lewis or hate him, it’s sport.

      I bet German fans will take their hats off and applaud Lewis the day he announces his retirement and show all the love and respect Lewis deserves. If you watch basketball and the NBA, just go back 10 years to see how opponent crowds were hostile to Kobe Bryant and compare it to his farewell season this past season; from resounding boos to standing ovations everywhere. Let F1 be a normal sport with passionate fans and avoid quick reactions every time a driver is booed, not every boo is a bad thing.

      1. Totally agree. Sporting rivalry, passion, partisanship. You have to be really good for the fans to boo.

        1. Yeah, that’s one way of getting booed; i might have booed Seb 4-5 years ago, once or twice. How the times have changed since then …!

    9. Rosberg is right in a way. It was more a copy of the move Vettel made on Massa at Silverstone. For which Vettel received the same penalty.

      Rosberg also seems to have some comprehension troubles regarding the rules again. He admits he was far behind at the braking point. He must realize that simply braking miles too late cannot mean that you are suddenly “ahead”. I mean of course you will end up “ahead” that way, but the racing line is for the one who is ahead going into the corner.

    10. I’ll bet anyone in on this site a steak dinner that Danii is not on the grid in ’17. It’s in writing but you have to come to San Francisco, CA to win your prize if I’m wrong.

    Comments are closed.